The Role of Government in Funding Human Infrastructure

As state and local governments face growing social service needs, from housing to healthcare to climate change-related infrastructure, issuers and investors alike are exploring ways to finance and fund these projects. 

Transcription:

Jennifer Arndt (00:08):

Excited to be sitting up here with this particular group of panelists because I've really enjoyed getting to know them and hearing about some really exciting projects that they've all been working on. And I'm excited for all of you to have the opportunity to hear from them as well. So I'll give a brief intro and then give you all a minute to introduce yourselves. But I'm Jennifer Arndt. I'm a Director at Masterson Advisors. Been in the public finance industry for about 15 years across a few FA firms have worked on infrastructure, everything from water and sewer to airports and transit.

Karen Strunk (00:45):

I'm Karen Strunk, Deputy Director of the Indianapolis Bond Bank. I've been there for seven years and we serve as a bond bank, different entities within Marion County and Indianapolis, including the city, the Airport Capital Improvement Board, and then also public transportation as well.

Trina Smith (01:02):

Hi everyone. I'm Trina Smith. I'm a Director at PFM in our Philadelphia office. I've been here for about 15 years working across different sectors like higher education and also general municipal governments.

Mark Price (01:14):

Good afternoon everybody. My name is Mark Price. I'm the Director of Capital Markets for New York State Homes and Community of Renewal. In that role, I run the bond programs for both the HFA and Sunny Mae, the State of New York Mortgage Agency.

Diana Hamilton (01:31):

We're bordering on evenings, so anyway, good evening, but my name's Diana Hamilton. I'm the President of Sycamore Advisors, a financial advisory firm with offices in the Midwest in New York. Previously I've worked in multiple different parts of the business. I was initially on the corporate side at Solomon Brothers long ago and far away. And yes, Michael Lewis sat three desks away from me and anyway, that's another story. And then when I moved to Indiana, I worked for the governor there and ran all debt issuance for the state for two gubernatorial terms, and then after that opened up my financial advisory firm, so that's been going 20 years, so I've been around the track a couple times.

Keith Halpern (02:25):

Hello, my name is Keith Halpern. I am a Muni Credit Analyst at Vanguard. I've been there about 20 years. I cover various infrastructure sectors from airports to ports to toll roads, and a little bit of higher ed as well.

Jennifer Arndt (02:42):

Well, Keith, let's go ahead and get started with you. I know you're a credit analyst for many different kinds of transportation related entities. What developments have you been seeing lately about how physical infrastructure is impacting the user experience and what impact do you see that having on the long-term credit of that issuer or the desirability of a project to invest in?

Keith Halpern (03:07):

Yeah, thank you. So obviously we're concerned a lot about the facts that go on in sort of a credit analysis, your classic debt service coverage, liquidity security and things like that. But one of the other bigger things that we can concern ourselves with is kind of the fundamental or the, does this project make sense? And that's kind of where the user experience comes in is does this actually make sense for the person who wants to be using it or does it fit in with the overall plan that we're starting to hear from let's say the city or the state? Good examples of this thing are New York City in the way that they are updating their transit hubs. Obviously they have a large amount of tourism and commuters, and so the fact that they're trying to improve that speaks to the overall view that New York City should be improving that and trying to grow that part of their industry.

(03:52):

Other places like Salt Lake City, improving their airport, big tourism parts of there, those are all things that make sense in the bigger picture and you're not building the road to nowhere and that the user isn't sort of lost out there and going, why am I using this thing? Or who's this kind of forward looking to that you could even bring in sort of the idea of the Sixers new arena kind going in next door to here as they're proposing idea. The user experience on SEPTA will probably be a big driver of that project Success going forward is are they able to get all those people in and out of the city using public transit that's not typical of the city, that it's done in the past, and so will that be successful or will we see gridlock in Philadelphia because everyone decides to drive to downtown or do people just not come? So that user experience I think will be a big driver of that, and again, speaks to that overall fundamental analysis of does the user really want this and how are they experiencing it?

Jennifer Arndt (04:51):

Yeah, after a full day of talking about really big policy problems, it's been great to talk to you all about how this actually impacts individual people. Karen, I know the city of Indianapolis has been really focused on quality of life improvements for residents really throughout the city. So I would love if you could tell us more about how the Circle City Forward initiative has driven where and how both the city and the Bond bank are investing in infrastructure.

Karen Strunk (05:20):

Yeah, absolutely. After, well, during COVID, it really highlighted a lot of the infrastructure gaps in Indianapolis, whether that is traditional road infrastructure or just really this what we're calling the soft infrastructure needs. And so in 2021, mayor Joe Hawse announced the Circle City Ford Initiative, which would invest $190 million into different neighborhood projects, and these are public infrastructure projects that related to, we invested over $50 million into Parks projects, two new fire stations, a new DPW Public Works garage. We are also building a new forensics facility agency, which was really outdated and also highlighted during the pandemic how much that need existed. We also were working on investments in a city market historic legacy project, as well as a new youth and family services center to replace the outdated juvenile detention facility as well as the new animal care services facility. So we've been able to identify these infrastructure needs in Indianapolis and figure out how to actually leverage those dollars so that $190 million is all debt funded.

(06:38):

Additionally, the mayor also announced infrastructure funding for 25 million in neighborhood roads and the streets, which don't receive that traditional capital improvement dollars as well as additional 25 million in trails and greenways, just I think a lot of the residents during the pandemic noted this need to get outside and Indianapolis, it's a consolidated city county, so it's 400 square miles to cover. It's a lot of the tax base is big, but there's also a lot of infrastructure needs as well with that large tax area. So I think those are projects that have definitely, we spent a lot of time working and trying to figure out how to address these resident needs and then also seeing how they can further be leveraged by other development or spur other developments. So with the Community Justice Campus project that we were able to add on by building the forensic services and Corner Friends agency there, also the Youth and Family Services facilities going to be added to that community justice campus, and then we've been able to see additional private development now going into those areas as well. So that's been a really interesting needs and just improving the infrastructure for others.

Jennifer Arndt (07:54):

Yeah, that's great. That must've been really fun to watch all that develop. Yes. Mark, as an issuer, I know you see firsthand every day how these projects that you're working on are being designed to accommodate different types of users. Could you tell us more about how the state of New York is using affordable housing to best serve its users and possibly meet some other policy goals?

Mark Price (08:17):

Sure. Thanks Jennifer. So with the state of New York, let's just do a little bit of a poll. I want to sort of set the table a bit in the New York City metro area, by what percent do you think home prices have risen since 2015? So let's get some hands in the air. How many people think it's 30%? Okay, we have one for 30%. How many people think it's 40%? Okay, we have one for two for 43, 10 years,

Diana Hamilton (09:04):

40,

Mark Price (09:05):

And then 50%. Okay, yes. So 50% it is. So home prices have risen by 50% in the New York City metro area outside of New York City metro area. Home prices have risen between 60 and 80%. Those are home prices. When we go to rents in the New York City metro area, rents have risen by 30%, and then outside of the New York City metro area and the rest of the state, they have risen between 40 and 60%. So I'm setting this table to show that there is a housing crisis, people are rent burdened, people have an affordability issue, and we have to think about housing as a full spectrum. So like I said, I run the bond programs for not only HFA, but also Sunny Mae. So we're funding, we're funding multifamily affordable housing projects with HFA and with Sunny Mae. We're funding loans to first time home buyers.

(10:20):

And that's very important because when we think about the mission of New York State HCR, our mission is to build, preserve, protect affordable units and increase home ownership across the state. It's a little bit of a long mission statement, but as far as organizations go and what it is that we do, it is a perfect mission statement because that is exactly what we do and that's the spectrum because without the home ownership piece, when we're funding through Sunny Mae or some of our home ownership programs where we actually subsidize the cost of new construction, and then those units can be sold at deeply discounted prices, what we do is we alleviate some of the burden from the rental market, and then in the rental market, we are inserting more units out there. There's a statistic that over the past 10 years, you had 1.2 million jobs created in the state of New York.

(11:28):

We only produced a third of that in housing units. So 1.2 million jobs over a decade, only 400,000 new housing units. So this really shows that there is, is this housing problem that exists, and on the HFA side, when we are doing projects, the projects that come through our underwriting teams, I focus on the 4% program because you need to issue 50% of your total development costs in tax exempt bonds to generate your 4% tax credits. And so focusing on those projects, we do a variety of different types of projects, including supportive housing and supportive housing can include housing that includes wraparound services for folks who are suffering from addiction problems, people who have been formally homeless, and a variety of different things along the supportive spectrum. And also we have senior housing as well that we support. And then beyond that, we support projects that have certain preferences for renters, such as buildings that are suited to artists.

(12:51):

And you can imagine folks who have taken up certain careers and chosen life paths. Affordability is tough. So we do that entire spectrum and the design elements are really important. I think Lois Scott and Dave Thompson yesterday talked about actually looking at the things that they've helped finance. I think Lois Scott was talking about driving on Illinois tollway and Dave Thompson was talking about going by the city of Burg, something like that. Well, more recently I've had the pleasure of touring some of the projects that we've worked on, and two areas in particular, upstate in Buffalo, we went past several city blocks, which there is nothing there now. What used to be there were dilapidated HUD housing and they were in disrepair, they were inhabitable, and this stretched several city blocks, and you can only imagine what comes with that in terms of having houses that are vacant, the type of crime that can persist because of that, it's obviously a blight.

(14:16):

Without doing something with this area, you don't really have a good path to improvement or revitalization. And so we recently funded a project there that will build 24 2, 2 and 3 story buildings. We'll have 405 units in total, and that really is changing the complexion of that neighborhood. If we go downstate, we recently toured some projects that we funded in Coney Island and two of the projects right next to each other. One is supportive housing for formerly homeless veterans, and the one next to it is supportive housing for survivors of domestic abuse. And when we think about the design of those projects, there has to be common space in order to provide the services for the formerly homeless vets in terms of finding jobs and job support. And in the building for survivors of domestic abuse. You can imagine the amount of security that goes into the design of that building to make sure that the tenants feel comfortable and safe. Just to grab a line from the mayor yesterday, and I'll leave it here, she's talking about making Philadelphia the safest, cleanest, greenest city in the world with economic opportunity for everyone. And I think that's what we try to do at HCR on a project by project basis.

Jennifer Arndt (16:11):

Yeah, that was great. So interesting to hear about all the policy goals and the successes you've had. Diana, your career has spanned both the private and the public sector, so I know you've dealt firsthand on both sides of the table with those sometimes conflicting goals of project affordability and the policy goals of your project. So how have you as an issuer and how have you as an advisor helped people through those discussions balancing those concerns?

Diana Hamilton (16:43):

Well, the state legislature would have a lot to say about what was affordable when I was working for the state, and generally you were either set on something like for instance, one of the things we did was add a penny to the gas tax. And the question was my job was basically to build, basically get as many dollars, squeeze as many dollars as I could out of a penny. And we ended up actually exceeding expectations. We got over 300 million in projects, and a lot of that was really sequencing and cashflow management with DOT, we did a commercial paper program that really allowed us to basically bond kind of just in time financing as it were.

(17:26):

So you're either building to kind of a revenue constraint or alternately you've got a project that you're either mandated to do and then you're just going to figure out how am I cobble together the financing to afford the project. But affordability is kind of an essential question in all financings, and I would hate to say affordability is in the eye of the beholder, but it often can be when you're in the public sector. Someone said earlier this morning when they were talking about P threes that one of the things was that removed politics from the equation. And I would say that was not my experience. I've worked on multiple p threes in the water and sewer sector about which people can be extraordinarily passionate about their water bill. I will tell you, but one of the things was that we worked, that was a big affordability project that Karen touched on earlier, was the community justice campus.

(18:25):

I was originally involved in the team that was selected to do the P three. The P three basically failed because it did not provide, at least in the eyes of the city council, sufficient transparency or really demonstrated clearly enough how they were going to pay for this thing. And it was a 99 year lease, and people thought, that's a huge commitment, would we really don't know where all the revenue's going to come from? So a couple of years later, we went back at it, the Mayor Hogsett when he came in, convened a community justice task force reform. And so as we started to talk about human, all we've been talking about here are different projects that touch on people's lives. How do you either improve the quality of life or improve or redesign the delivery of services? That whole redesign of the delivery of services was essential to the community Justice campus. It was a fundamental principle that this is not working. We had a jail that made Dickens look positively glamorous. We were under so many orders from the A CLU and Justice Department for overcrowding. I mean, a friend of mine who was a scout leader as a project used to take his scouts there to lunch and dinner basically to threaten them that should you fail to behave, this is where you're going to end up. But I mean, it was kind of a terrifying experience for these kids.

(20:00):

So we had multiple problems with, one of the things that I always heard said that I thought was made so much sense was what you need to do is separate what is the mental health problem from something that's a criminal intent or a criminal issue. And certainly what we had huge problems with recidivism, I don't think this is different than really most cities with respect to mental health and drug addiction being huge contributors to the jail population. So when they designed this facility, you brought together family courts so that kids who could be with their parents, we had the superior courts there as well as the other courts we brought in, one of the most important things was the assessment senator, so that before somebody got booked, they would actually be evaluated for both mental health and drug testing. Because one of the issues is if you book someone first, they're actually not eligible for Medicaid treatment at the hospital.

(20:59):

So what we wanted to do was assess them prior to booking to determine whether we had a health problem here or we had a criminal problem. And so the assessment center was built literally across a small river so that you could physically separate them before they actually were brought in for booking. We changed, it used to be that you used to take four deputies with armed deputies to deliver food trays because you had prisoners. There was a tunnel between the old jail and the city county building, and literally you'd have chain gangs, these guys in manacles passing by. So you always wanted to make sure which elevator you got into before the one o'clock sentencing deadlines because it was always a little sketchy if you got into certain elevators at the wrong time on the day. So the whole aspect of the program was how could they afford it?

(21:54):

The mayor had committed to not raising taxes. And so the question was as opposed to what do we want to build and how are we going to pay for it? It was like, what could we afford? And that's what we were going to build. And we knew the assessment center was going to be a critical part of it. We've got the sheriff's office there, we've got the coroner. Oh Lord. I mean, it used to be that literally they were using refrigerator trucks because we were running out of space in the coroner's office. I mean, the visual on that is really bad. So we are redesigning these facilities and we've done them in a sequence. So that actually has enhanced the affordability. But one of the fundamental things is we weren't just building a building, we were fundamentally seeking to redesign the delivery of critical services.

Jennifer Arndt (22:45):

Thanks. Really keeping on that idea of affordability of infrastructure, Trina, I know as a financial advisor you've worked with a lot of large complex local governments creating financing plans for the kind of infrastructure that we don't always see water and sewer pipes. So how have the communities that you work with been balancing maintaining that critical infrastructure so that the water is there and safe when people turn on the tap with very real concerns around affordability?

Trina Smith (23:20):

Yeah, the water and sewer sector has definitely been hit hard by inflation materials, labor on top of the existing consent degrees and dealing with forever chemicals and things like that. So they're looking at regular tools that they have using their stabilization fund and also encouraging the use of assistance programs and kind of auto enrolling people, so at least you're getting some payment on the bills. They're also looking at rate structures. Is it a flat rate? Is it an inclining progressive type structure? So there's a lot of discussion around that. And also if you do have to raise rates, it's engaging your stakeholders early to say, Hey, we had a 3%. I think we have to go 9%, and if we don't, can't pay our bills, or we're going to violate our covenant, which is going to compound the problem with increased rates. So it is just talking to stakeholders early and often. And the rating agencies also, they do understand that they've always been focused on the ability and willingness to raise rates. They are looking at how much compared to historically are you raising rates looking at your peers, are you at 9%, someone else is at three, are you higher than that? So they do understand that as a sector, they're going to have to borrow to deal with some of these problems. But I think it is anything, a lot of communication with the rating agencies.

Jennifer Arndt (24:51):

That's great, thank you. And I guess Keith, really to introduce another perspective on this unseen infrastructure as a buy-side analyst, how are you assessing the condition of some of that unseen infrastructure, things like those power transmission lines and tree trimming and water and sewer systems?

Keith Halpern (25:10):

Yeah, it's a tricky one on there as if we were talking before about the big picture and everything's making sense, the unforeseen infrastructure as kind of that nitty gritty stuff that really is kind of the day-to-day of those places. And people just sort of expect that to work. They expect their lights to turn on. They generally expect to have clean water coming out of the tap on a daily basis. And when it doesn't happen, that can cause some real serious consequences. And we've seen some of those play out across the country in different places. But so it's kind of our job as analysts to try to stay in front of as many of those as we possibly can. And how do we do that? Well, it's taking and asking for that information. That was kind the joke earlier, that analysts want all the information. Yes, we probably do want all the information we want to know and kind of assess what are they doing, what's their plan, that documentation of a plan for replacing pipes or for keeping the transmission, cutting down vegetation around places, all that stuff.

(26:05):

Being able to stay in front of that, to know that the money is being put into the system and that it is being kept in a good agent plant. We're also looking for things like diversification, words, like a hundred percent solely reliant on the only asset that we have. Those types of things set up flags for us that are like, okay, what are you doing? What are you saying? Is that your only power plant that you're getting all your power from? Are you buying all your power from ERCOT? And if that happens to not be working, what do you do? So these are all things that we try to stay in front of and say, Hey, that's the flag. Ask the questions. Because once that happens and you have a big event like that, yet we're questioning everything about that area. What else aren't you doing? Where else have you not been making the investment? Are people going to want to move there? Are they making questions about businesses saying, is this a reliable area that I want to invest on and open a place of business? And so it starts some of those long-term troubling trends.

Jennifer Arndt (27:10):

Mark, I kind of wanted to move on and discuss some of what you touched on earlier, which is really how well-planned infrastructure investments can benefit our communities beyond just the direct users. Can you share some success stories around how the Housing Corp has been leveraging developments to provide affordable housing also as a catalyst for larger redevelopment in New York communities?

Mark Price (27:36):

Sure. And you're right, I did touch on it before. I think the project that I was talking about in Buffalo, we're basically redeveloping several city blocks. And so that is a part of an overall revitalization process. And typically all of our projects, when our project underwriters are looking at the different applications, they really do look for something that is beyond this one building on an island by itself. It's about how does this tie into the revitalization of an overall community? And a lot of times we're funding projects that are parts of phases or it's a phase of an overall redevelopment. So in the case of Buffalo, we're going to have these several city blocks being totally transformed. That's going to give a completely new look and vitality to that community. And we do that a lot. The other thing is in terms of, we're talking about aging infrastructure, we're talking about is the grid sufficient? Are the water and sewer lines sufficient for these new developments? Without some of the development that we're funding, you wouldn't have some of these infrastructure upgrades, and they're just part and parcel of the projects that we're financing. And so there's that tie in as well.

(29:18):

If I go to the Coney Island example, when we were touring some of the projects, the two projects that I talked about, they were developed by the same development team, and they were mentioning to me that, yes, those are affordable housing projects, but because there weren't really great comps in the area until they had developed these two buildings, now market rate developers actually had some sort of comps in terms of cost of building what sort of rent support there could be. Obviously the rents and our units are restricted, but at least it gave some sort of price discovery, if you will, and it allowed for some market rate loans to be underwritten to other projects. So we really look at what we're doing as being part of a broader ecosystem. And so I think just housing at the center, and I know Beth, you called housing, sort of soft infrastructure. I don't take exception to it, but I'll offer a different perspective. I think housing is very much, we're talking about these buildings, they're hard assets. Putting these projects together are not easy. It's a hard process as well. And then you really do get this multiplier effect from better infrastructure, better community, better engagement, and just a real turnaround story for the places that we're bringing these projects. Nimbyism, not with standard.

Jennifer Arndt (31:06):

Dovetailing off that kind of thinking about redevelopment that you guys have sparked in communities, Trina, I know you've done a lot of really interesting work around equity and bond financing. How are your clients deciding which neighborhoods they want to invest in given limited resources? And how can all of us as municipal finance professionals help clients incorporate equity into the bond financing process itself?

Trina Smith (31:31):

Yeah, a lot of issuers are definitely taking a look at project prioritization after taking care of projects for safety and legality. It's okay, how are we choosing and are we just doing projects downtown where all the rich people are? So issuers are taking a look at community engagement. A lot of issuers have community forums where they say, okay, we want to hear your opinion, but are those programs at night? Are those programs at times when most people are working? So looking at things really from start to finish of community engagement, what services you're offering, where you're offering them and how you're offering them. For instance, yes, we want to engage a community, but we may have a large Spanish speaking population and all of our materials are in English. So looking at things like that. And then once you have your priorities in place, it's how are we measuring that progress?

(32:28):

So it's what metrics are we using? Are we using income, income increasing? Are we using people getting into affordable housing? And also the timeframe for that because one project won't make a difference in two years, but are we looking at a 10, 20 year horizon and what are the milestones that we want to achieve? And then just kind of in the actual bond issuance process, it's a little hard to incorporate equity into that, but it's disclosure. How are we talking about what we're doing? How are we letting the market know how we are incorporating equity into all these processes? There are some funds who are looking at that, and of course, the cost benefit of really including that, and even designating bonds as social for instance, is debated, but it's something that we need to start and make sure that we're including so that the market cares about it because there are investors who will look at that. And that social designation does put additional eyes on that. So yeah, just generally the point, and we're a part of PFM is a part of a program with the public finance initiative and looking at how we're incorporating equity into the capital budgeting process and the bond issuances process. And really the point is we don't want race to be an indicator of outcomes. So this finances is our field. So that's where we're working in right now.

Jennifer Arndt (33:54):

Yeah. I think picking up on that thread too, Karen, you told me about some really interesting work that indiego has been doing, transit agency in partnership with the city and the Bond bank to really expand its best rapid transit program. So I was hoping you could tell us more about how the city's partnered with Indigo to really maximize the investments of both entities and improve quality of life for residents.

Karen Strunk (34:20):

Yeah, absolutely. So in Indianapolis, our public transportation partner, they go by Indigo. And so in 2016, there was a voter referendum to a local option income tax for transportation services. It is part of a larger plan to overhaul from their spoke and wheel system to a grid system. Then also add three bus rapid transit system lines that would also utilize electronic and hybrid buses. So kind of a shift to more modern transportation services in Indianapolis. And so that referendum passed in 2016. And since then, indigo has started to work on these three bus rapid transit lines. There's the red line, purple line, and then the blue line. So the red line was completed in 2019, and that's been a good tool to see, okay, is this going to work and where can they improve from that? That line was about 80% funded by federal grants, and then the other 20% was local dollars.

(35:28):

But what they've seen from that line, which is about, I believe it's about 17 miles, there's been over 700 million of economic development along this line. And so we're starting to see this shift towards transit-oriented development, and it's coming in a number of different ways. And so I think someone yesterday spoke about local agencies needing to have better collaboration. So I think this has really prompted this city and Indigo to work not just on infrastructure improvements together, but then also in terms of development. So on the infrastructure side, we have Indigo working really closely with the city's department of public works to make sure, okay, how are we repaving the roads? Does this make sense? Are we adding crosswalks here? Where do we need more sidewalks and a ramps? What kind of stormwater updates do we need to include with these new rapid transit lines? And so it's a unique opportunity to leverage those dollars for these other infrastructure developments while also increasing the public transportation services for the residents.

(36:35):

So the purple line is going to open at the end of the year, and that's also has because of the red line having already opened and people seeing what this could be and the services it can provide, there have been a couple organizations that have taken that opportunity to say, I want to put my manufacturing facility along this purple line because then I know my employees are going to be able to get to work. So Cook Medical, which is a medical device manufacturer headquartered in Bloomington, Indiana, opened up a facility along the purple line, and that's a hundred new jobs for an underserved neighborhood. And so we're starting to see how there's collaboration between private and the public sectors here to leverage these public transit lines for more than just transportation. And then also the blue line, which is going to be hopefully getting under construction in 2025.

(37:32):

It'll also leverage quite a bit of federal dollars in terms of a Tiger Grant, but that's going to connect the airport to downtown. And so we're also continuing to see this local collaboration across different entities. As an issuer who serves all of these different entities, it's really nice to see them all working together. And then going back to the transit oriented development piece, we're also continuing to see the Department of Metropolitan Development and then also our local metropolitan planning organization working with Indigo to figure out where, what are places where we can think about workforce, housing, other affordable housing opportunities, as well as just market rate housing Along these lines. I just saw yesterday there was a partnership between the city and then also IU Health, which is our large hospital entity in Indianapolis, and then a number of different local CDCs working on a project that's going to, it'll be at an intersection at two of the lines, and it's also going to include workforce housing as well as the cleanup of a dry cleaner site. So now we're touching on environmental cleanup, workforce housing issues, and then also leveraging the transportation line. So it's really, really unique to see.

Jennifer Arndt (38:47):

Yeah. Well, I'm too short to see the timer without moving, but I think that's about time. So I'm glad that you guys all got to finish your conference by hearing about these success stories, that the work that we can do has been in these communities and the great work that these panelists have done. So thanks for toughen it out to the very last panel, and thank you to the panelists.