Women executives on boards and beyond

How can women execs ascend to board leadership for nonprofits -- and beyond? Jill Schwartz, a senior Bank of America investment banker who sits on the Women's Bond Club board, discusses how she became a board director and what roles women are playing on boards and in finance now, in conversation with Chana Schoenberger, American Banker's Editor-in-Chief.

Transcript:

Josh Rucci:
All right, so I think we were getting started. So welcome everybody to Arizent Studios. We are delighted to have you here. My name's Josh Rucci. I'm Chief Commercial Officer of Arizent. We publish American Banker, we publish The Bond Buyer. We build the Most Powerful Women in Banking Events, and we do other marvelous things for financial services leaders like yourselves. So we're very happy to have you here. We're delighted to be in partnership with the Women's Bond Club as well. And I want to give a special thank you to Alex and to Kim and to Lesley and to everybody who was a part of bringing this event together. This was a germ of an idea about a year ago and now it's a reality and we picked a great day to do this as well. So we're really looking forward to this. We've got two great discussions that we're holding for you this evening.

The first is going to have our editor from American Banker, Chana Schoenberger ,with Jill Schwartz. And the second is going to have our Bond Buyer executive editor Lynne Funk with Aoiffe McGarry. And with Megan Newberger. Hold your applause for Lynn and Megan and Aoiffe. We're going to hold off on that and we'll do that in between. But I want to first give a quick bio for Chana and for Jill. So Chana Schoenberger, Editor-in-Chief of American Banker, she has a 20 year career in financial services media. She's had leadership roles at Bloomberg and at Dow Jones and at Forbes and at JPMorgan. No offense to JPMorgan competitors out here. Jill Schwartz, executive Vice Chair of Global Corporate and Investment Banking at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, also serves as co-head of the firm's global financial sponsors group. Prior to BofA, Jill ran leveraged finance at Barclays, had various risk management and sales leadership roles at JPMorgan, and she's been an extraordinary advocate for women on boards and women's leadership throughout our career. Serving as exec sponsor for BofA's Women's Leadership Council, head of Barclays International Diversity Council, and was inducted into the YWC'S Academy of Women Leaders. Welcome, Jill. Thank you. Welcome Chana. And our first conversation is going to be around Women's ascension on boards. Chana, over to you.


Chana Schoenberger :
Thanks, Josh. Hi. Hi. So thanks for joining us, everybody. Let's start real quick by talking about your background and career. How did you get where you are now? You've worked for a bunch of banks.

Jill Schwartz:
I have indeed. But I've spent a fairly significant amount of time at each of them. So I'm old. That's for starters.

Chana Schoenberger:
Experienced.

Jill Schwartz:
I'm very experienced. I've been doing this for about 30 years, so a little longer than you have. So I started my career as Josh alluded to at the old JPMorgan. I really started out in Manny Hanny. Now I'm really dating myself an old Manny Hanny trading program, which was the old credit trading program, which some of you may have recalled. You have to do all of the cash flows by hand. I don't know. It was six months long.

Chana Schoenberger:
With an abacus.

Jill Schwartz:
Brutal, right, with an abacus basically. So I started out basically in that old training program when I started though it had already become Chemical Bank at the time. So I stayed at, was then Chemical Bank, then Chase, then JPMorgan.

I was in a bunch of different departments and really I had graduated from Cornell University and was determined. I grew up in upstate New York. I was determined I was never going back there, by the way. And I was determined to come to New York City. And that's how I got this job in this management training program at Manufacturers Hanover Trust. So I had a bunch of different jobs at Manny Hanny, at Chemical, at Chase. I then moved into sales and trading in the derivatives businesses and was focused on corporate derivatives. I ran a bunch of different businesses in the corporate derivatives business. I did FX, I did rates, I did commodities. I then was recruited over to Barclays to run their corporate derivatives business, but that sat in investment banking there. So that was a very different kind of setup than I was used to at JPMorgan.

I decided that I was going to go do that after 18 years at JP Morgan, which was a huge decision for me. And I will tell one story about that because I had gotten obviously a million calls over the time that I was at JP Morgan, and I never really took them. And I started to think maybe I should look into doing some other things. And I got this call from Barclays, and it was really the old Lehman team at the time because it was right after the financial crisis. So it was really that old Lehman team and banking. And they had called me and they were really heavily recruiting me, and I kept calling people and asking for their advice, my mentors on the Street. Everyone kept saying, is it more money? Is it more money? Is it more money? And then I called someone who I viewed as my smartest mentor, and I said, what do you think about this?

And he said, can, he was the only person that actually asked me can I do the job out of everybody? I said, yes, I can do the job. And he said, you should take that job then, because it's actually a more senior job. It sounds like a better job and it's going to stretch you, and it sounds like you're going to learn a lot in that position. So I decided to take that job. I ran the corporate derivatives business there, but that sat in banking. I then ran the investment grade business together with the derivatives business. I then asked for a stretch assignment. They then put me in charge of the leverage finance business, which was totally different than anything I had done. Everyone thought it was crazy that they put me to run that business, which was super interesting. And people were a little nervous.

I said, if I can run a derivatives business, I'm sure I can figure out how to run a leverage finance business, which I did. I then decided that it was time for me to go back to a American bank, and I decided to go to Bank of America, and I joined as an executive vice chair person, woman, I don't know what they call it, woman, executive vice chair, vice chair, whatever they want to call it now. And I did that. I joined as really a senior sales coverage person in capital markets. And then the person who was running the corporate derivatives business decided to go on to do something else. They then asked me to run that business, which is a humongous business there, obviously, given the breadth and depth of the business across both large corporate and mid corporate. So I ran that business for about three years.

We grew it by 70% over those three years. Then of course, said I'd like something else to do. So they asked me to be the COO for Matthew Koder, who runs GCIB, which is a global corporate investment bank. So I did that for about eight months. And then just very recently, the head of sponsors decided to take another position outside of the firm, and they came to me and they said, we'd really love you to run financial sponsors. So that's what I'm doing now, and I'm really excited back covering clients. And I'm out with clients two times a day. I had a client lunch, I have a client dinner and I'm out selling stuff again.

Chana Schoenberger:
That's a huge job.

Jill Schwartz :
Huge job. I do a lot of different things. Yes.

Chana Schoenberger:
So financial sponsors are probably, I'm guessing, the most demanding, most sophisticated clients on the street. Yes. How do you do that?

Jill Schwartz :
They are the most demanding and they are the most sophisticated. I think you have to be on your toes. You have to be available around the clock. You have to be able to meet their needs, and you have to be honest about what you're good at and what you're not good at. And so I had a meeting with someone the other, yesterday, and I said, she said, here are the five things I need to do. And I said, we can do these three. We can't do these other two, and I'm not going to pretend that we're going to do the other two. And I think it's all about being honest and direct around where you're going to be able to deliver for the client and where you're not going to be able to deliver for the client. And I think you are able to gain a ton of credibility with those people when you tell them a quick yes or a quick no. I think if you drag things out, that's really where you get in trouble with those people.

Chana Schoenberger:
So, transparency.

Jill Schwartz:
Transparency goes a huge distance with them and a quick yes or a quick no, because these people do not, I mean, they don't want to wait around for anything.

Chana Schoenberger:
They don't have the time.

Jill Schwartz:
Yes. When I was running Leverage Finance, when I first took it over the first weekend, I'm like, there's a conference call at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night. I'm like, what is going on here? And I'm used to working a lot of hours, but I'm like, 11 o'clock on a Saturday. And I'm like, yeah, the sponsor wants a conference call at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night. I said, okay.

Chana Schoenberger:
Were they in Eastern time?

Jill Schwartz:
Oh yeah. They wanted a conference call at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night.

Chana Schoenberger:
So client service?

Jill Schwartz:
Yes, client service.

Chana Schoenberger:
Awesome. Okay. Well, it's probably not for everyone.

Jill Schwartz:
It's not. It's definitely not for everybody.

Chana Schoenberger:
But that's good. You found the thing that you're good at.

Jill Schwartz:
Yeah, it's fun though. Fun getting deals done.

Chana Schoenberger:
Definitely. You are on the Women's Bond Club board. Tell me how that came about.

Jill Schwartz:
About. So it's very interesting. So when I was running lev fin, a bunch of my clients asked me to interview for some public company boards of their portfolio companies or some private companies that they owned. And a couple times had gone to my partners in HR at BofA and our legal department. And I said, I'd really like to interview for these board positions. And unfortunately, BofA, like many financial institutions really are won't allow you to do it because of the conflict of interest.

Chana Schoenberger:
Which is pretty common.

Jill Schwartz:
It is very common. Most financial institutions will not allow you to go on public company boards or private company boards because it conflicts you out of doing business with these companies. And so I had gone, I think it was three times to my partner in HR and I'd gone three times to the head of legal and then they came back to me and they said, well, we have another solution for you.

Why don't you actually join a non-for-profit board because you're allowed to do that. So then I said, that's actually a great idea. I would love to do that. So they came back to me and they said, we have someone who is going to be coming off the Women's Bond Club. And I said, that's fantastic because I'm very familiar with the organization. I've gone to their event for the last 20 years. I've been very involved with picking the Rising Stars, and I would love to get involved with it. So they were kind enough to put me forward. And then I was put up and interviewed for the position. And it's been a great, fantastic experience for me. And I do think that that's one of the great things that unfortunately if you work at a financial institution, it is very difficult to go onto a public company board. I think on some occasions, one off, they will approve it. But I think I am getting really good experience being on a not-for-profit board, and I probably will join others in the future.

Chana Schoenberger:
That's really exciting. So what sort of advice do you have for women finance execs who want to serve on a nonprofit board? What sort of board should you look for? How are your skills from work transferable?

Jill Schwartz:
Listen, I think one of the reasons why I wanted to join the Women's Bond Club is because I am so passionate about, as Josh highlighted, the executive sponsor for the Women's Leadership Council, I've always been very involved in mentoring women in finance. I think you have to find something that you're passionate about and that you're really interested in because it is a lot of work. I mean, I think, Diana, what do we have or someone else in the room? We have monthly board meetings. Monthly board meetings. So it is a lot of time, it's a lot of events, and it's a lot of time. So I would encourage you to go on a board that you're passionate about and you want to spend time about, and you want to spend time really helping facilitate change. But that's what I would encourage someone to do because it, a lot of it is very time consuming.

Chana Schoenberger:
What sort of committees on a board are women who work in finance best suited for?

Jill Schwartz:
Well, I think for the Women's Bond Club, everything is, I mean, finance, audit, all of those I think are everyone's well suited for. I mean, I was on the committee for our big event, which I probably wasn't well suited for. Cause I'm probably the most disorganized person, although I did get the speakers organized. That I did. I did corral our speakers. But I think women in finance could be on any committee, honestly. But I think they sort of do get relegated. I mean, when I was asked to interview for those boards for public companies or like, oh, well, you would be great on the audit board or the finance committee. So I think that that's where you're sort of relegated to. But I think that if you work in finance, you could be on any committee because you run a business, or if you're running a business, you can probably do anything. I don't think you really need to be pigeonholed. In fact, I think you should actually push yourself to do something else, especially if you're on a not-for-profit board.

Chana Schoenberger:
As a way to broaden your experience.

Jill Schwartz :
Yeah, for sure. Oh, that totally works. I mean, I learned a ton trying to put together this event that we had. I mean, I didn't know what, I had no idea what was going on.

Chana Schoenberger:
Event planning is incredibly hard.

Jill Schwartz:
I mean, I'll be much better at it next year, I promise.

Chana Schoenberger:
Yes. We have a large event planning division here, and I have so much respect for how they do their jobs.

Jill Schwartz:
I mean, it is a lot trying to corral everybody.

Chana Schoenberger:
So as you mentioned, you're the executive sponsor of the Women's Leadership Council at BofA. What can you tell us about the state of women in banking over the three decades you've been doing it?

Jill Schwartz:
I mean, listen, I think we've made huge strides. I think people behave a lot better than they used to.

Chana Schoenberger:
In public.

Jill Schwartz:
In public. I think they behave a lot better in private too. I think that everyone is very well intentioned, and I think that there are huge efforts, especially at the junior level, to have some sort of equality and parity. I think that everyone in across the financial services industry still struggles at the more senior levels. And I think that's really across banking. And I think everyone really struggles with it. And I don't think that there's a magic wand that we can wave. And I think, I'm not sure how you fix it. I mean, we have roundtable after roundtable after roundtable to talk about this internally and how you fix this. But I do think that there have been huge strides made around how people act and how the pipeline of people that we have coming through, especially at the junior level, has improved massively. But I do think it's interesting because it's very hard. Even at the business school level, we don't even get the pipeline. I mean, we don't even get, 50% of the applicants aren't women. They don't want to do banking.

Chana Schoenberger:
And business schools are now pretty much 50% women students.

Jill Schwartz:
Yes.

Chana Schoenberger:
If they don't want to do banking, what do they want to do now?

Jill Schwartz:
I think they want to do consulting or tech or for Google, just, yeah, they want to work for Google. I mean, we just don't have the pipeline. But for undergraduates, we have a much better balance. That seems to be for the applicant pool, it's much more balanced. But for business school, it's not as balanced as you would expect, which is shocking.

Chana Schoenberger:
So this sounds like a marketing challenge. Yes. How do you market banking as a career for young women?

Jill Schwartz:
A hundred percent. And that's why the Women's Bond Club is so great, because we do spend a ton of time with women and educating them on finance, et cetera, from a young age.

Chana Schoenberger:
Well, the financial literacy piece is such a big thing. I mean, most Americans really are innumerate and they have so much trouble understanding their own finances, much less how to make smart choices because they never learned in school. Often their parents really were struggling.

Jill Schwartz:
For sure. So listen, I think we have a lot more to do, but the industry definitely has made strides. But I think all industries struggle. I mean, if you look at the technology industry too. Oh yeah. I mean, if you look at any of these industries, I think everyone sort of struggles with women at senior levels.

Chana Schoenberger:
I was looking at the list of the largest 50 banks by assets. And of course it won't be a surprise to anyone here that only one of them has a female CEO, Jane Fraser of Citi, right? Yes. And the other 49 are all men.

Jill Schwartz:
Yes.

Chana Schoenberger:
So a lot of, there's growth areas there.

Jill Schwartz:
We still have a lot of progress to make, but I think that there's been decent progress, especially at the more junior level. Definitely. Still a lot of wood to chop though.

Chana Schoenberger:
Yes. Okay. So we can open this up to questions if anybody has questions for Jill. I bet you do.

Speaker 5:
Yes. Mic. So I'm curious, what's a job that you haven't done yet that you'd really like to do?

Jill Schwartz:
Oh, that's an interesting question. My off the reservation job or one that I'm actually qualified for?

Speaker 5:
No, you don't have to be qualified.

Jill Schwartz:
I always did want to be a medical doctor, so that really was my real dream job.

But that doesn't really, that's not very realistic at this. At my ripe old age of 53, I'm not going to be able to become a medical doctor. It happens. I would wouldn't mind going and running a company. I've gotten calls before where people have said in a financial services, FinTech type of company, I've taken those calls. That's interesting to me. I would go do that. I mean banking, I mean, I would do something more senior in banking, but that's something that's sort of more linear and obvious. But I have had those calls that seem a little bit, a little more off the reservation. But it is interesting. I think what's going on in FinTech and financial services is I think the world is going to change pretty massively actually over the next 10 years.

Chana Schoenberger:
What's the coolest part of FinTech in your view?

Jill Schwartz:
I mean, I don't know if it's FinTech per se, but I think what's happening in the evolution of asset management and how that's all going to change and what's going to happen to with the direct lenders, and is this all going to be electronified and what's going to happen to all that whole world and that whole ecosystem. A lot of it's still very 1985 how everything gets done,

Really. I mean, if you really, people are making phone calls, you going to take 200 million of this, you're going to take a hundred million of that. I mean, it's pretty shocking actually how things are still getting done. And eventually I'm assu--I mean, I keep thinking that it's going to change. It doesn't really change, but I would think eventually it will change. Might not be in my lifetime, though.

Chana Schoenberger:
Some large percentage of financial services is still run on Excel.

Jill Schwartz:
Yes, a hundred percent

Chana Schoenberger:
Antiquated.

Jill Schwartz:
And I don't know if this chat G P T, I don't know if we're going to have all these analysts making all these pitchbooks in 10 years and all that stuff. So I don't, analyst, we might not have analysts. We might just have robots. Robots making

Chana Schoenberger:
Or the pitchbooks will make themselves.

Jill Schwartz:
I had never used ChatGPT. Not to get totally go off topic, but I had never used ChatGPT before, and someone showed it to me. I was like, that is amazing.

Chana Schoenberger:
Super fascinating.

Jill Schwartz:
So I mean, I think all of this is going to change massively. But to answer your question, I would do something probably, how's this whole world ecosystem going to change and evolve, and what does a world look like in 10 years?

Chana Schoenberger:
Well, there aren't an awful lot of female FinTech founders either. We just did a list of the most influential women in FinTech, and there aren't so many.

Jill Schwartz:
So yeah, I'm not surprised about that either. So there's a huge opportunity there.

Speaker 6:
Yes. What advice would you give your young women? Yeah, what advice would you give your younger self looking back on your career now, decisions that you made or what you struggled over or stressed over and you look back and you're like, should I have done that? Not done that.

Jill Schwartz:
Take more risks.

Speaker 6 :
Okay. And can you give an example of where you didn't or you did?

Jill Schwartz:
When I was at Barclays, one of the bankers said to me, you should come work for me and be a healthcare banker. And I was like, ah, it seems like too far afield. And it seemed like a huge risk to do that. And I probably should have done it. Looking back. I mean, I was not that old and I probably would've been fine, and he would've taught me everything, and I would've been, I'm sure. And I love healthcare. I'm super interested in the topic, so hence my doctor comment. So I probably should have done that, but I was just too nervous to take that risk. The other thing I would tell, and I tell anyone who comes and asks me, don't sweat the small stuff. I feel like when you're young, you get all worked up over the dumbest thing and it just doesn't matter. Yes. A lot of stuff just doesn't matter. And now I laugh at everyone when they come in my office freaking out. I'm like, just, relax. Go back to your desk. I'm, it doesn't matter. I'm like, relax. Those are probably the two things.

Speaker 7:
So this has been wonderful. You talk about coaching or mentoring young women. I do a lot too, but there's two questions. You've moved a lot. I've been at the same company for 37 years, so it's a little different. So there's a question about loyalty and do companies give value to that? People who go and then come back. And then the second, as you've moved, did you see a difference in culture where it was like, oh, this was better or worse? And is culture a more important part of the discussion with new talent, young talent coming in now where they feel comfortable and can they really grow over the next 10, 20 years?

Jill Schwartz:
Okay, so that's both two very interesting questions. I think loyalty does matter. I do think that it does matter, and I think people value it. And I have moved three times, but I feel like I've always stayed places for extended length of time. And I'm very close with a core group of people from JPMorgan still. And I'm very close with my boss from Barclay still. In fact, I still talk to him every other week. So I do think it matters. And I think culture is huge. I think culture is what keeps people at their job. I don't think it's comp that makes people leave. I think it's the culture and what's going on at work, why people don't stay at their job. And I think people are confused about that, honestly. So I do think, especially with this younger generation, I think culture is a hundred percent of why people stay at work. So I do think it's a huge part of it. And I think there was, the culture between JPMorgan and Barclays was very, actually, it's not that the culture was different. The environment was different because JPMorgan was like the hundred pound gorilla US bank. The phone rang. Barclays, you had to be scrappy to get any business. Cause no one was calling, to be honest with you. And BofA and JPMorgan are much more similar because they're big US money center banks.

But I do think that culture is huge, and especially for this younger generation. I mean, I have all these young people working for me, and that's all they want. That's all that matters to them.

Speaker 8:
Hi. I wanted to ask what advice you have for younger women who have no board experience or no prior leadership experience, how would they?

Jill Schwartz:
I think that, so when I was younger, there were some junior boards at some of these not-for-profits. But I think you can look into that. I think, don't they still have that?

Chana Schoenberger:
Yeah, they still have that.

Jill Schwartz:
So I think that there's a lot of opportunities for junior board memberships. So that's what I probably would suggest. If you do want to get experience, that's what I would probably suggest.

Chana Schoenberger:
It's the young friends of whatever. Yes. The young friends of, I think it usually involves going to cocktail parties, and then you get to the point where you're planning the cocktail parties, doing fundraising.

Jill Schwartz :
Then you can move up when you're old to the senior board. Yes. That's actually a great idea. Yes. Right. Alumni groups are very good for that.

Speaker 9:
You touched on AI, and obviously it's a very big subject. I also went on ChatGPT yesterday for the first time. I was quite amazed.

Jill Schwartz:
It's amazing.

Speaker 9:
I think that as it takes hold that people will become more important because it's going to be a highly competitive world, and I think the people who are left are going to be more human. Do you not think that might be an opportunity more for women as well? Because I wouldn't say we're more human than men. Forgive me. But our softer skills, our personal skills are stronger and easier. Do you think this might be an added opportunity?

Jill Schwartz:
You absolutely might be, right? You might be right. Yes, for sure.

Chana Schoenberger:
Yeah. AI is something that we write about all the time, and virtually all the banks are doing big projects on AI right now, everybody.

Jill Schwartz:
Yeah. Well, and there's all these thesis that it could be the end of humanity and it could cause all these problems. And it could.

Speaker 5:
The problem is fantastic.

Jill Schwartz:
Right?

Speaker 5:
There's no way it could be controlled,

Speaker 3 :
Right? Invested interest, right? Not

Speaker 5:
Careful. It's moving so

Speaker 4:
Fast.

Chana Schoenberger:
So fast. I mean, we're definitely not going to be careful. When are we ever careful as a society?

Speaker 5:
Well, if we're extinct, a real,

Chana Schoenberger:
Yeah, no, we just don't have a very good track record of making collective decisions,


Speaker 5:
Understand how we could people understand.

Chana Schoenberger:
But it's a huge opportunity for banks, and it's a huge opportunity for executives and especially women. It's an opportunity for men too.

Jill Schwartz:
Yeah. I think it's just going to obviously take some time

Chana Schoenberger:
To evolve and see what happens. But yeah. Okay. We have time for one more question, and then we have to do the next panel. Yes.

Speaker 5:
Now that she's mentioned AI, I had a wonderful opportunity working on a project as a pilot project to analyze behavioral responses. And they were actually using AI to determine whether someone would be successful in a job. So as a banker, I'm asking you, do you feel or do you see in the future that the banking industry will selectively pick those individuals that fill that algorithm?

Jill Schwartz:
Well, that's interesting that you ask that because when we interview now, we give these kids all like math problems. I mean, I don't interview these kids anymore, but we do give them math problems and we ask them to basically do that. And so it's changed a lot from when I was interviewing for these jobs. It wasn't as quantitative. I don't recall it as being quantitative of an interview process as I believe it is now. And so I hope it doesn't go that way because I do think that these jobs, it's quantitative and qualitative because you do have to have that. You have to be able to say to the client, okay, yes, I can solve your problem, but I have the ability to say to the client, I can do these three things. I can't do those two things. Here's what I'm going to do for you. I can finesse things. And you can't always judge whether someone's going to be able to finesse anything or as good EQ from if they can do a math problem. And that's the issue. And so I think that's the nuance you don't get when you have an AI look at someone, and that's how you decide whether you're hiring them. You can't tell if someone has good interpersonal skills

Speaker 5:
They're doing. I work with all the

Speaker 3:
Fit, right, based

Speaker 5:
On eye

Speaker 3:
Contact. Right.

Chana Schoenberger:
The problem also is that it really risks incorporating bias into the hiring decisions because if you say, here's a model of all the people who are successful at this job, let's figure out what makes people successful. And then we're going to select for applicants that are that, well, what if there's a racial bias? What if there's a gender bias? What if there's some other bias like alma mater or something? That's not what banks want. Banks want to have people who are going to be good at the job regardless of where they went to school or regardless of where they come from. And there are actually both legal and HR reasons why it has to be, it can't be biased. So that's going to be a big challenge.

Jill Schwartz:
So I think we've probably a long way away from doing that, but who knows? I would think we're a long way away from doing for that

Speaker 5:
On, I walked away from,

Jill Schwartz:
Yeah, I would think we're a long way away from doing that because it seems like it would be challenging. Yeah. It poses a lot of risks

Speaker 5:
They're doing. I was in the project

Speaker 3:
At a bank,

Speaker 5:
It wasn't a bank, it was different. I can't really

Speaker 3:
Talk the website,

Speaker 5:
But it's here. The data you're actually looking, taking, watching you now, analyzing and making a determination and to represent the company. Wow, didn't my

Chana Schoenberger:
Right. Interesting. We should talk more about this later. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much, Jill. We've got to move on to the next panel at this point. Thank you. Thanks everybody.