Julie Burger, Co-Head of Public Finance at Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking, leads the origination arm of the Municipal Products Group, with a particular focus on transportation, P3 and infrastructure clients. Julie will join Bond Buyer Executive Editor Lynne Funk to discuss her 2024 expectations on bond volume and infrastructure finance as the country's vast needs accumulate amid an uncertain macroeconomic environment.
Transcription:
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio for the authoritative record.
Lynne Funk (00:09):
Hi everyone and welcome to today's Bon Buyer Leader session. I'm Lynne Funk, executive editor at the Bon Buyer, and today I am delighted to welcome Julie Burger. Julie is co-head of public finance at, well, I'm sorry, Wells Fargo Corporate and Investment Banking. She leads the origination arm of the municipal products group with a particular focus on transportation, P three and infrastructure clients. Welcome Julie.
Julie Burger (00:38):
Thank you, Lynn. Thanks for having me and I'm excited to be here.
Lynne Funk (00:42):
Great. I also would be remiss not to say that Julie was a 2019 Bond Buyer rising star and we're happy to see you have actually risen.
Julie Burger (00:53):
As I said earlier, it was probably one of the highlights of my career, so I appreciate it very much.
Lynne Funk (00:58):
Awesome. Well, it makes us excited too. Well, we have a lot to cover here today. I think first I'd like to start perhaps just talking broadly about the market. The first three months of the year issuance is up. I think we actually got preliminary figures for March and we're up I think 4% year over year from last year, but it's coming down off of two rather poultry years and despite rate volatility in US treasuries, muni seem to be outperforming. How has the opening of 2024 affected getting business done?
Julie Burger (01:35):
Yeah, I think you said it well and in my new role I'm encouraged by what we've seen thus far in terms of volume and where I think we're going for the year. Obviously a lot of the discussion as of late, and I know we're going to talk about it, has been bad refinancings, but really we're seeing issuance, whether it's new money, whether it's refinancings, I think people are starting to access the market more and more, and so I know we'll talk about volume, but certainly feeling good about where things have been thus far. I think there's probably four reasons why we've seen things open up pretty encouragingly. First is a lot of new types of financings that maybe three, four years ago weren't happening. Tenders obviously is the topic du jour. I think there were roughly 70 tenders last year. Year to date there's been about a dozen or more, and so I think that's going to be a continued trend that has really helped volume.
(02:29):
I think the other trend is that the economy's starting to slow, inflation's finally cooling a little bit, and so I think people are no longer as flush with cash, and so we are starting to see a lot more new money issuance as people start to fund capital projects. I also think we've hit what I'll call a critical juncture in the bipartisan infrastructure law or IJA in that two and a half years in finally, projects are starting to get off the ground, past design, past planning, and people are actually starting to issue bonds for projects that have gotten federal dollars. So I think we're finally starting to see that happening. Not surprisingly, it takes a little time and then maybe the most important one is I think we've reached finally a post pandemic normalcy. I think there was a period after the pandemic where a lot of issuers had to figure out what the new normal was going to look like, whether people were going to be working remotely hybrid, and I think we're finally getting into a new normal such that a lot of issuers are more comfortable really thinking about capital planning and issuing bonds.
(03:38):
I think airports are probably a great example. I think at the beginning of the pandemic we thought, oh my gosh, airports are going to have to pair back capital plans. And to the contrary, right, we're seeing pretty large airport capital plans across the country, so feel really good about volume and obviously where the market has started and I know we'll talk a little bit about rates and other items going forward, but certainly as you said, feel good about the markets and feel good about things getting done this year.
Lynne Funk (04:07):
Great. You set the table really nicely I think for the flow of what we're going to be talking about today. The questions I have for you, but if we could start off maybe with bond volume after those two years, it's definitely rough. What are your expectations in terms of this year, but maybe even more importantly, a couple years out 2025 and beyond?
Julie Burger (04:28):
Yeah, I joke, it's Easter weeks, so predicting volume and eventually rates is a little like being asked to count the jelly beans in the container. So I know our Wells Fargo strategists at the end of last year predicted roughly 425 billion for 2024. I have the luxury that we're now three months in or almost exactly a quarter in, and so it was looking, I think we're going to hit just over 100 billion for the first quarter, so it seems like we're on pretty good track to hit about 400 billion. I think the BAB refinancing trend obviously could push us closer to that 4 25, so I feel like we'll probably be in that, call it 400 to 425 billion mark. When you look at last year, that's about a five to 10% increase and certainly a lot closer to the 10 year average. So feeling good about more volume this year than the last two years.
(05:26):
I think the one big unknown obviously is the November election, and so I do feel like a lot of clients are frontloading borrowings and I think you'll start to see a pretty big fall off, particularly in November and potentially in December as folks really try and get ahead of the election. You asked about 2025, which I think is probably anybody's guess at this point. I will say typically volume is correlated to interest rates. Certainly our expectation and I think the market's expectation and even the fed's expectation is that we're going to have lower rates as we head into 2025, and so that probably will be helpful as we think about volume as we head into 25, but obviously the election and how that impacts policy at the federal level is a big unknown that I think will be a big driver as we get into 2025 and figure out who's running the White House, who's running Congress and whatnot.
Lynne Funk (06:25):
Right, right. So let's talk. You mentioned obviously a lot of issuance is rate driven given the current rate environment, some we're looking maybe mid-year first fed cut. What are your expectations for it? Are we still going to be seeing a lot of tenders? You mentioned earlier opportunities for refundings. What do you see there?
Julie Burger (06:53):
Yeah, I'll take this in two parts. First talk about rates and then talk about tenders. So on the rates front, you said it, I think the Fed has been pretty transparent that they expect to start cutting rates probably this year as inflation starts to cool. Our Wells Fargo economists project, the first rate cut probably in June, and they're projecting a hundred basis points of rate cuts by the end of the year, maybe a little less bullish on rate cuts, and I think when you really read the Fed Minutes as of late, you can see there's certainly some concern about inflation and whether it's getting to the 2% target. So it wouldn't shock me if the first fed cut doesn't happen maybe until July. There'll be roughly three or four months of additional CPI data by then. And so I definitely think there's a possibility that rate cuts are not coming as quickly as the market or even our economists might think.
(07:51):
Although I do think we certainly will end the year with lower rates. Question is what that does to the muni curve. Obviously we'll probably see some changes on the short end, but it's not implausible to think that the curve on the long end may not look dramatically different, at least from a rate perspective. All that said, I think the public finance banker community has shown that we will be creative regardless of where rates go, whether they're higher or lower. So obviously when rates were very low taxable, refundings were getting done quite actively. As rates moved up, obviously tenders became more popular. As ratios have changed, we've seen a lot of strategies derived around that, whether that's fab or fundings or tenders for taxable bonds, opportunities to earn positive arbitrage, I do think tenders will remain a key part of the market. It was maybe a few years ago that tenders were a little bit of an esoteric strategy and you had to really spend time explaining them and creating documents was a lot of work.
(08:57):
We've gotten to the point now where tenders are a much more normal part of the market. A lot of issuers frankly, just use them as part of their annual borrowings to take advantage of opportunities for savings. So I do think as rates get lower, you'll continue to see tenders on the tax exempt side. Obviously tenders for taxable bonds, I would say a lot of those that are eligible have now gotten done or at least what we'll call the low hanging fruit. That said, I still think you're going to see tenders on taxable bonds because there are more and more candidates as original escrows expire, and we've had some luck on on tenders as well where someone is able to go back and get more tenders. So I do think that's going to continue to drive volume higher, going to continue to be a big part of the market. And I also think just typical current refunds, as rates move lower, obviously it'll look attractive and I'm sure we'll find something new as rates and ratios move. So you can almost count on that as we head into next year and later this year.
Lynne Funk (10:04):
So you mentioned Build America Bond, refundings, you just completed one Wells did for the state of Washington over a billion from your seat. Can you give us a sense of expectations for future Babs or fundings given the news that there may be some investors pursuing lawsuits against issuers? Where do you see this going?
Julie Burger (10:24):
Yeah, Babs are obviously a hot topic right now and you mentioned State of Washington. I think that's one of about a dozen that have gotten done and probably a dozen more that have now been announced via Emma. I do think that's going to continue and I think you're going to see several more get done in addition to Washington Purdue got one done this week as well, and several more have been announced and posted. So obviously it's a big trend. I do. I won't wade into the investor sentiment and some of the discussion on what's permissible, not a couple points that I'll bring up. For issuers who sold Babs, they were fully expecting that they were going to get a 35% subsidy, and so a cut to that subsidy has a meaningful impact. Even if we're talking a million dollars or $10 million, that has a really meaningful impact on the bottom line of any given issuer, and so that is a big consideration for them.
(11:28):
You also have to think about the fact that their job is to make sure they're protecting taxpayers and constituents and the risk of the federal government continuing to sequester, even if not at current levels, but even higher levels is a real risk to any given issuer who's really relying on that subsidy for the bottom line. So I think that's driving a lot of the decisions they need to look out for their constituents. And don't get me wrong, I think you talk to any issuer, they care deeply about their relationships with investors and really want to be as transparent with the market as possible, but they also owe it to the taxpayers who they serve and their constituents to obviously do what's in their best interest and reducing their risk on subsidy is in many cases a really sound strategy for them. So long-winded way of saying, I think you're going to continue to see issuers who have an extraordinary redemption feature utilize it where they can. This is the exact reason that we put those extraordinary redemption features into Babs was issuers wanted this protection in the event the subsidy went away or was reduced in a way that negatively impacted them. And I think all of them feel that the reduction in subsidy has certainly negatively impacted them. So certainly a topic I think will continue to trend, but I think issuers feel like this is a risk that they need to take off the table if they have the opportunity to do so.
Lynne Funk (12:58):
Right. It's so interesting to think about when it first happened and you can't control what one Congress writes and what the next Congress will do. And I think that's interesting with some of the things in the IRA actually where there's some direct pay tax credit options and already, I think we had a story a couple of weeks ago about issuers trepidation over really embracing these programs. Yeah,
Julie Burger (13:23):
It's unfortunate There seems to be this sort of hard to trust the federal government is where we've gotten to both from an issuer and I think an investor perspective when we talk about Garvey Bonds as an example. So it is unfortunate and another reason why I think come November, we're going to see people pause and sort of see how things shake out.
Lynne Funk (13:46):
So talk to me about, with your conversations with your issuer clients across the country, what are some of the key themes that you're hearing from them?
Julie Burger (13:55):
Yeah, I think a couple of big ones. One is obviously concern about the market and rates because rates have an impact and higher rates certainly change the calculus on certain projects. I think the economy is a big consideration because for years we were in a high inflation environment and obviously that had an impact on cost and labor and operations, but it also meant the tax revenues were off the charts in many cases. And so as that slows, you're certainly starting to see folks having to rethink a little bit about budgeting and figure out solutions, which as I said, I think that's probably helped some of the new money issuance we've seen thus far. We've talked about the federal government, but obviously in an election year there's always a big focus on what's going to happen at the White House, how that's going to change tax policy, spending policy at the federal level.
(14:55):
And then there's a lot of meaningful local elections that I think are going to happen as well that will have a big impact. And so lots of folks this year obviously very focused on that because it's going to be not just a presidential election year, but a lot of pretty major local ballots that are going to have an impact on everything from housing to transit. We talked about inflation, but that continues to be a big topic because as I said, from a cost perspective, it's really impacted projects. I know I've had some clients who've talked about project costs ballooning 50% over what they expected, and that changes the ability to get projects done and how you think about which projects you prioritize. So that's certainly been a big consideration. And then I think the bipartisan infrastructure law, as I said, it feels like money is finally really flowing there. We've seen all sorts of big grants, all sorts of notices of funding opportunities. So there continues to be a lot of focus on how to get those grants, how to make sure that you have projects that are shovel ready and really working through the infrastructure bill as much as possible to maximize federal dollars, which has been really, I think, helpful to a lot of the issuer community.
Lynne Funk (16:15):
Do you think, I want to get into that the IJA, because I think when it was first came out, some of the questions I had were like, well, is this, is it going to deter issuers from issuing debt when they have all these grants? But are you seeing that? Are you seeing it as more complimentary and as this is being rolled out, what are you seeing there?
Julie Burger (16:40):
Yeah, I think the first couple years of it, it probably did slow issuance a little bit because not just the bipartisan infrastructure law, but obviously at all sorts of covid relief bills. And so most of our clients were frankly flush with cash and also figuring out how they're going to get more federal grants under the IJA. So I think initially it probably did slow issuance coupled with all the other things that were going on. I now feel like we've reached the point in the bill and when you and I were talking beforehand, we're actually now almost closer to the end of it than to the beginning of it, which is pretty incredible. It it's
Lynne Funk (17:20):
Good news. Yeah,
Julie Burger (17:22):
We'll be talking about reauthorization before you know it, but the good news is I do feel like two and a half years in money is finally flowing as it's supposed to be. There's been more and more guidance on different aspects of the bill that have helped clients better understand what are the opportunities, what should they be focused on? And I do feel like now it's being coupled more with bond issuance that's really serving as a nice compliment to federal dollars. So I think we've reached sort of this juncture where it is now being a positive for our muni market and what we're seeing in terms of issuance. We are obviously spending a lot of time with clients on different aspects of it, some of which involve bonds, some of which don't. As an example, we've been working quite a bit with different issuers who have been looking at TIA or RIF loans for new asset classes.
(18:19):
One of the big focuses frankly from the White House has been trying to do TIA and RIF loans for transit oriented development projects, which are projects that are essentially within a half mile of transit. And so that's been a pretty big focus from a whole new set of borrowers who historically wouldn't have made use of these programs. But now with the IJA as well as new guidance can spend a lot of time talking about electric vehicle charging infrastructure, there was call it roughly seven and a half billion in the IJA for that, some of which is discretionary, some of which is formulaic. And I think a lot of states are deploying that money, figuring out what their EV charging network should look like and also how you leverage some of that money with private capital. So I do think that's been a focus for a lot of states.
(19:13):
Broadband is another area within the bill, and I think there's still a bit of guidance that could be helpful on that front, but that is another area close to 70 billion of funding for broadband projects. And I think we're seeing a lot of folks, again, think about how you marry that with private capital. We alluded to Garvey Bonds a little earlier. I think there is also a bit of a focus on how you think about accelerating some of the federal dollars because not all of it's coming at once and project costs, you can't necessarily align with the timing on federal dollars. So we are talking to clients about ways you accelerate federal monies, whether that's for a large transit project or anything else where you're talking about federal dollars that may occur over many, many years that don't necessarily align with the capital expenditures on the project itself.
(20:09):
And then lastly, on this point I just mentioned, I just talked about the IJA and you mentioned it earlier, obviously the IRA as well as the CHIPS act as well. There's all sorts of money coming from both of those as well that everybody is trying to figure out. So there's a lot of focus on how you make this work. I understand there's an announcement hopefully coming soon on the greenhouse reduction fund amounts, which are call it another 25 to 30 billion of funding that'll happen over many, many years for different borrowers, whether that's CDFIs or others. So continuing to find ways to marry these federal dollars with private dollars with bonds and other sources has been a big focus. I know it wells and I think really across the industry as everybody thinks about how you get infrastructure projects done. So it's probably been about the most exciting time I can remember in terms of having opportunities to go out and get federal dollars and make projects happen that otherwise wouldn't have happen.
Lynne Funk (21:14):
You touch on private a lot and you work on p threes, how they've certainly grown, but not to the extent maybe that some folks in the past have would like, but where do you see them? Are they sizable deals coming down the pipeline? Are you seeing opportunities for smaller projects even to get done via P three? Certainly a lot of private capital too, right? We know that it's out there.
Julie Burger (21:38):
Yeah, I think there's been a pretty big evolution of the P three sector. I think back to when I started working on p threes and it was almost exclusively large transportation projects, there's still plenty of large transportation projects that are getting done and will get done. You're seeing quite a few, frankly in the southeast, whether that's Georgia, Louisiana, North Carolina, Tennessee now has a very large P three program of what they're calling choice lanes, which are managed lanes. So I do feel encouraged about what that pipeline looks like in the southeast here in New York. Obviously there's been quite a few p threes for the airports and several of the terminals at JFK that anybody who flies in and out has seen all the construction going on there for better or worse. So I think those kinds of big transportation projects are still going to happen and still a nice pipeline.
(22:39):
But to your point, I think we've seen an expansion of the types of projects that are considering P three delivery and it's really mostly about risk transfer. So anytime someone uses a P three, it's largely about trying to get some private sector expertise and knowledge and also transferring risks that maybe the public sector doesn't want to retain. So we are spending a lot more time with universities and hospitals who are thinking about p threes for everything from energy upgrades, student housing, even workforce housing, which is a big topic as we talk about affordable housing across the sector. Social infrastructure projects are also, I think growing in popularity. We were fortunate, we worked on the DC Street lighting project a few years ago, which I know one, I think northeast bond buyer deal of the year, so thank you for that. But that's indicative of a different kind of project that you haven't always seen and a smaller type of project that I think hopefully we'll see more and more of whether it's courthouses as well.
(23:45):
We worked on a courthouse project in Miami, so I do think we're seeing more use of P three delivery for social infrastructure project, whether that's schools, lighting or otherwise, also seeing more use, going back to my conversation on broadband about interest in making use of private expertise for delivering broadband, and I think that's something that we'll see continue. The one other trend that I think has been interesting is there used to be this concept of p threes of what we call the hard bid, where a public sector entity went out and said, Hey, what's the lowest price at which you're willing to deliver and finance this project? We are now seeing more progressive p threes or PDAs where it's really more of a collaboration between the public owner and the private sector. And I think that has a lot of advantages to the market. It sometimes gets you to a better solution.
(24:43):
It allows for more collaboration. And I think frankly, some of the big contractors prefer that approach because it lets them be involved in the design process and really understand what the public owner is looking for. So I do think we're going to see a lot more of those pre-development agreements or PDAs rather than some of the hard bids. And I think that'll lead to more successful threes in a lot of places where sometimes the hard bid gets you the lowest price, but not always the best project or best risk transfer that you're looking for. Okay,
Lynne Funk (25:18):
Interesting. There's so much out there. Let's talk a little bit about investors perhaps shifting demand. There were dramatic outflows from mutual funds in 20 22, 23, not as harsh, and we've definitely seen some inflows this year, but during that time, the growth of separately managed accounts has been rather dramatic. Some on the street have it paid debt well over a trillion, and obviously the SMAs focus a little more on the short end. How has the shifting demand components in the market? How have you had to work with your issuer clients or have you worked with your issuer clients to kind of shift the way the deal tructure you structure deals?
Julie Burger (26:05):
Yeah, I think you hit on it. There's sort of two investor classes that have really, I'll say, picked up their head as of late and been much more active in the market. The first is SMAs. We joke, we used to talk about retail, but there's not as much two legged retail, meaning actual individuals. SMA are really what's driving the retail demand as professional retail. And as you said historically, they kept fairly short on the yield curve. So certainly we would tend to see bigger order books in that short part of the yield curve where they were really actively participating. What we've seen as of late is they've actually been going further out on the yield curve. So whereas historically maybe they would've stayed within 10 or 15 years, we've now seen them going out as far as 20 years and they continue to be a huge part of transactions.
(26:59):
Several of the recent transactions I've worked on, they've been call it 50% or more of the order book. So you're certainly correct that we think about that when we structure deals. The other big group though that has really grown has been ETFs or exchange traded funds, and that has been another growth area of investors that we've seen, particularly on larger deals where you have larger block size transactions. So certainly not every transaction can be structured to cater to that group, but ETFs have been a big buyer base, and I know a base that has come in on some recent transactions to be really helpful. I'm always hesitant to structure a deal toward one investor class because on any given day, one investor may have money and one may not. So we try and avoid being too beholden to any one investor class. I will say we've had good success lately trying to really be nimble, and I think our issuer clients who have had the best success are nimble, meaning if there's a lot of demand on the day you're actually selling bonds, being able to upsize is a great way to take advantage of that or vice versa, sizing the deal to where demand is.
(28:16):
So if demand is really strong on the short end of the curve, being able to adjust bonds and trying to put bonds where the demand is has been a really useful strategy for our clients. Particularly with all the volatility. This has been a week where we've seen a little bit of weakness in the market and some cuts happening, and so transactions where issuers have been able to really be nimble and react to that have gone better. So we always try and advise our clients on being as nimble as possible. It's not always doable just given the dynamics of any given transaction, but we really have been working with clients more and more in this volatile environment to make sure that deals are structured and ultimately managed against what the demand is on any given day.
Lynne Funk (29:06):
Makes sense for sure. Something that, when you mentioned it's an interesting, we've seen so many very large deals this year so far, billion plus, 2 billion plus. When we were talking about inflation and just the cost increases, do you think that's part of it or is there a move toward larger deals in general, or is this just a confluence of things or I'm just thinking you just worked on a billion for Washington? Yeah,
Julie Burger (29:39):
Well, we joke a billion today. I guess there'll be 2 billion in five years given what inflation has been doing. But yeah, I think to be honest, I think some of it's inflation, what would've cost $500 million say five years ago if you factor in inflation probably is closer to a billion dollars. So I do think inflation is obviously driving a little bit of size. Obviously some of it's refinancing, so that's just a function of if you look back where rates were and where volume was, there was a lot of issuance, call it 10 years ago, and so that's driving some of it as well. But yeah, I think billion is the new 100 million I guess, and probably we'll be saying 2 billion is the new 1,000,000,005 years from now, so part of it's certainly inflation and hire everything pretty much.
Lynne Funk (30:31):
Right. So we did get a question from the audience and I'll cage it as I think this is, you and I have talked about this in general, do you see for wells, how does this city exit from the market? How is it impacting things in 2024 in general, if you can talk what you see as how has it shifted the business?
Julie Burger (31:00):
Yeah, certainly it's always unfortunate to have anybody exit the business, and I think Citi did a great job on the deals they did, so it's certainly a bit of a surprise to everybody to have them exit the business. It's been nice to see a lot of folks from city landing places, including we've hired several people on our desk from Citi that we're really excited about. So I think it's nice to see that there's still a strong demand for good professionals in the muni sector. So that's been really encouraging to see both at Wells and across the street. Certainly having another player not in the markets never a great thing for anybody. So certainly the exit's not helpful in that regard. That said, I think everybody's finding opportunities to step up and find new ways to serve clients who have a void and need to be served, whether that's on the issuer side or frankly on the investor side, whether that's around trading.
(32:00):
So I think certainly there's been a step up from whether it's big banks like Wells, regional banks, minority firms, and again, I think that hopefully that void will be filled. But again, I think it's, when I think back, very sad to see a major player exit in the market, whether that's city or UVS. And so I think that for issuers, you want to have as many players in the market as possible and people who are committed, and I can say certainly Wells feels very committed to the market. So I think a lot of our peers would say the same as well.
Lynne Funk (32:35):
Yes, everybody who gets that question tends to say the same thing, and it's really from the bond buyer's perspective, those stories about when people land at new places are very, very well read because I think this is a community really, we care about our colleagues and want to make sure that everybody's succeeding. So agree. So I would be remiss not to talk about, this is coming up on the tail end of women's history. I would love to hear your thoughts on how the public finance industry is fairing and bringing more women into the fold. How would you grade municipal industry? What advice would you give for young women and men who are entering this space, given some of the challenges it faces?
Julie Burger (33:23):
Yeah, I mean, as a general matter, I've always felt like the muni industry frankly does a better job of cultivating a diverse set of professionals than frankly a lot of other areas that I've seen. I think part of it is our clients are diverse, and so by nature, they want to be covered and served by diverse teams, whether that's gender, race, or any other things. So I do feel like Munis have done a pretty good job in this regard of having more diversity. I think back to when I started, and I was really fortunate in that I had some really great mentors who were senior women, and I think that's important and probably an important way of how we cultivate more and more senior female leaders in the business. I think over the last couple years, I'm encouraged how many more women, female heads of public finance there are, right in the last call it year or two, I think it's probably doubled.
(34:21):
So that's really encouraging to me, and I'm hopeful that for younger women starting in the business, it's helpful to see that and to see that that's where you can grow in the business. I think it's incumbent on women leaders to mentor junior professionals, and that's very important to me in this new position that I've taken, and I know it's important to all the other female leaders across the street, frankly. So I do feel like Muni has done a good job. There's always room for improvement, particularly as you get up into the senior ranks. And so it's incumbent on leaders within the business to mentor younger professionals and continue to grow them. And I'm fortunate in the opportunities I was given by people who really helped me and showed me how to do it. And so I think hopefully we can continue to show that to the next generation.
(35:15):
At Wells, we have a very active women's network, which has been very helpful to me. We have a women go far network within our division that's been tremendously helpful in developing mentorship and whatnot. And you asked a little bit about what advice I give junior professionals. It's really focused on mentorship. The way you grow in your career is finding a mentor who can talk to you about all the areas of the business, grow your professional network, and really help you balance things, which is always the biggest challenge for women, I think, in the industry. And so my advice to younger professionals, whether men or women, is to really find as many mentors as you can and really try and cultivate those relationships because that's how you ultimately grow across your career.
Lynne Funk (36:07):
Yeah, I think it's interesting too that Covid slowed some of that down when we lost a little time in person, but certainly every event that I'm going to lately, it's much more robust and people are in person again, and yeah.
Julie Burger (36:23):
Yeah, I think our younger professionals were certainly the most excited to get back into the office, and I think that's because they crave that mentorship and that's how you learn. We all started an environment where you're in the office five days, if not seven days a week. So I think that is important as we think about how we grow the next generation of leaders in the business.
Lynne Funk (36:46):
So we covered quite a bit. Did I not, did I ask you, did I not ask you something that you think you would want to leave our viewers and our listeners with? Any other things you see coming down this year that are exciting trends or things that you think we should chat about
Julie Burger (37:06):
As usual? And I think you covered most of them, to be honest. We alluded to this, but obviously it's been a bit of a tumultuous time in the business, but I would say I feel really encouraged about where it's going. And we talked about volume, so obviously that's helpful for everyone. But at the same time, I feel like there are new areas where we're able to get involved and help. And so I feel really encouraged about where Wells is heading, where we're going, and frankly feel that way more broadly about the industry. So really appreciate being invited here today, and what I know has been a really exciting leader series and excited to be included as part of it. So thanks for inviting me.
Lynne Funk (37:50):
Oh, I'm so glad you came. We really appreciate it. We appreciate your time. Great insights. This conversation will definitely continue, and thank you to everybody who joined our presentation and we'll see you all soon.
Julie Burger (38:04):
Thank you, Lynn.
